VEGETARIANS VS MEAT EATERS – WHO’S REALLY GUILTY OF ANIMAL CRUELTY? – A response
This is my response to a blog post by Paul, available here, titled, ‘Vegetarians vs meat eaters – who’s really guilty of animal cruelty?’. I’ve copied the content in full of Paul’s article here, with my response to each of his points following immediately below those points in “bold”. I asked Paul over Facebook if he would engage on the issue if I produced this, and he graciously agreed. This response is written and intended in good faith and a friendly nature.
‘MEAT IS MURDER’ (APPARENTLY)
I’ve read a lot recently about animal rights activists and how cruel we meat eaters are. Let me make clear that I find those who mistreat and abuse animals of any species abhorrent individuals. However, I feel strongly that there are certain groups whose definition of ‘abuse’ and ‘mistreatment’ is so wide of the mark it’s time to turn the accusation of animal cruelty back on them.
There are groups of vegetarians and vegans that claim consuming meat or animal related products, such as dairy, is cruel. They argue that anyone eating bacon or drinking milk is guilty of being cruel to animals. Yet surely it is the vegetarian lifestyle which places the welfare of animals at risk.
ACTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES
It is documented elsewhere, in a far more logical way than the way I can, the economic benefits of the agriculture and farming industries. However, I’m just a humble blogger for a web design business. I’m not a farmer so to be honest those arguments don’t interest me.
“We could consider further the claimed ‘economic benefits’ of agribusiness, but given the stated lack of interest, we’ll leave this aside for now”
What does interest me is the question of what would happen should every human on the planet decide from tomorrow that they will no longer consume any meat or animal derived product? This is what these militant vegetarians want. What would be the consequences?
“This is a meaningless and impossible hypothetical question. Firstly, the world isn’t going to go vegan overnight, which renders all further considerations of that scenario completely pointless. Secondly, no vegan (“militant” or otherwise) suggests this as likely or even necessarily desirable; making the world go vegan overnight simply isn’t a stated or achievable goal. Thirdly, every single ethical movement, from Abolition, to the Suffragettes, to Civil Rights and LGBT rights, took place over a long period of time, with gradual, incremental changes in attitudes, behaviours and – finally – legislature. Veganism is no different, save for the fact that it is a much, much greater challenge in scope than any of the aforementioned movements. The idea that wholesale change on this issue would or could take place quicker than the others mentioned is nonsensical. So again, the premise of the thought experiment, and everything that follows, is inherently flawed from the off.”
THE END OF MAN BREEDING LIVESTOCK
There would no longer be any need for many species of animal to be farmed. Man has farmed animals since the beginning of time, living off the meat and produce of them.
“A few points here; We already – in much of the developed world at least – no longer require farmed animals in order to survive, thrive or eat wonderful, tasty cuisines. It’s not clear why the current/future non-necessity of an industry that requires major suffering, death and environmental destruction is presented as a negative development here.
It’s also absolutely not correct that man has ‘farmed animals since the beginning of time’, nor have humans been ‘living off the meat and produce of them’ in the same time frame. Industrial scale farming is a fairly modern development, but regardless, the length of time that an act has been taking place has no bearing whatsoever on whether that act is ethical, sustainable or healthy. As a perfect example, war vastly outdates industrial farming, but is no more valid by default today as it was during the Crusades.”
If we suddenly stopped requiring the products animals give us unintended consequences would occur.
“Animals do not ‘give us’ anything. We breed them into existence and then take their lives and body parts through violent force against their will. It’s ‘taking’ by us, not ‘giving’ by them. There will also be no ‘suddenly’, as mentioned previously. The world isn’t – and never will – go vegan overnight, so any considered consequences from that proposition are fantasy consequences.
Also, if we’re being strict, the sentence should read; ‘If we suddenly stopped desiring the products of animals…’. Animal products are not a dietary requirement for humans. We’re Facultative Omnivores, not Obligate Carnivores. We matter of factly have no requirement to consume meat and dairy. The millions of healthy, happy, thriving vegans are living, breathing testament to this fact.”
It would create a situation where humans would no longer support cattle, pigs and chickens et al. Very quickly their numbers would dwindle as the farming industry would cease to exist and breed animals in huge quantities.
“Given that universal veganism isn’t going to engulf the planet overnight, the idea of stranded, abandoned and unsupported cattle is a fantasy one. As for dwindling numbers of cattle, this is the natural consequence of veganism *over time* through reduced demand for meat and dairy. We already manage breeding by increasing exponentially the numbers of farm animals to meet human consumption demands. As veganism rises, breeding would simply be managed in the opposite direction.”
PEPPA PIG BECOMES AN ENDANGERED SPECIES
Take away breeding programs in the farming industry and what happens to animals such as cows, pigs and sheep?
“As already mentioned, breeding can be controlled in both directions, including down to sustainable levels. Current levels are far beyond sustainable – animal agriculture is the leading contributor to anthropogenic climate change, which is the greatest threat to the survival of our own species.”
Without the care of a farmer it is likely over the course of a few decades the numbers would drop to such an extent as to make these animals endangered.
“A few points; Firstly, animal agriculture is a leading cause in species extinction, so if concern for other species is a priority, then support for animal agriculture is incoherent and incompatible. Secondly, as mentioned, animal agriculture/dairymeat plays a leading role in our own major threats to survival; climate change catastrophe, anti-biotic resistance, pandemic obesity and our biggest killers in the western world, such as heart disease. Thirdly, we already have farm animal sanctuaries and many, many people keep farm animals as pets. While keeping farm animals as pets is not as practical as keeping say, dogs, people do it and do it very successfully. There’s no reason at all for farm animals to become endangered. With that said, they are bred into existence with the sole intention of exploiting them; violently by default. The reasonable question to ask is whether we consider it better to breed something into existence with the intention of inflicting pain, suffering and death upon it, or simply not creating it in the first place. The answer seems pretty straight forward…”
My point is it’s not a meat eater who is cruel to farm animals. Nor is it the milk drinker. I recently read that many activists refer to cattle farmers as rapists for taking a cow’s milk!
“I get that this is the point you’re attempting to make, but it starts with an impossible premise; that the world going vegan overnight would be bad, and then seeks to validate that position by explaining the consequences of something that simply wouldn’t happen. And whilst doing so, not considering any of the ethical, environmental or health implications that veganism is advocating for and considers carefully.
In the case of dairy milk, farmers are not called rapists for ‘taking the milk’. A female cow will only lactate once pregnant. The ‘rape’ component of the dairy process is the forced artificial insemination of a female cow with forcefully extracted bull’s semen. The procedure is highly unpleasant for a female cow, forced (therefore non-consensual, making it rape by any conventional human standards) into pregnancy, only to have their offspring taken away from them at birth – a terribly sad and stressful experience – and to suffer the same fate repeatedly throughout their life until they are no long ‘productive’, where they are then consigned to the slaughterhouse. Female calfs will suffer the same fate as their mothers. Male calfs will be slaughtered for veal. That’s the dairy industry. In human terms, we’d call it not just rape, but abduction, theft and murder. That’s the process, and it will always be the process for as long as we continue to create consumer demand.”
I believe it is actually beneficial to the welfare of cows for people to consume milk and dairy products. By doing so we give the cow a reason to live, a reason to be bred and a reason to be cared for by a farmer. Why remove this guarantee of the survival of cattle as one of the worlds most abundant species?
“The consumption of milk and dairy, as described above, requires by default the forced artificial insemination of a female cow, the removal at birth of its offspring, the slaughter of that offspring if male, a repeating of that process for the female cow throughout its greatly shortened life span and to end its existence with a bolt to the head – which often doesn’t stun the animal at the first go – in front of watching and terrified other animals who try to escape, before being hung upside down with their throat slit, bleeding out and often writhing around in pain and agony. It’s difficult to conclude that this is ‘beneficial’ to the welfare of the cow. It’s also difficult to assert that this is a reason that anyone would consider worth living for. Survival or existence of a species is less important than the quality of its existence. Not only that, but as mentioned previously, animal agriculture is itself the greatest contributor to species extinction, and the leading catalyst for the major threats to decent human survival. So again, concern for species survival and support for the dairymeat industry is simply incoherent.”
A RADICAL SOLUTION TO ENDANGERED SPECIES WORLDWIDE
Every year millions of animals are bred on farms here in the UK alone. We already know this is done because there is a demand by humans for their products.
“This true, but tells us nothing about the ethical validity of the practice and industry itself. Thousands and thousands of Africans and West Indies’ were shipped to Britain and the USA to meet demand for slave workers in the plantations. Point being, the simple existence of a demand does not validate supply by default. What matters is whether the supply is ethical or not.”
Now, consider animals such as lions, elephants and rhinos. They are all endangered species with a very real risk of them becoming extinct in our lifetimes.
Why is it not feasible to commence a breeding program in farms by making use of the significant amounts of meat these animals generate? It may be a radical idea but if it prevents the extinction of these species is it not worth considering?
“I’m not sure I follow or understand the suggestion, but I read this as using the meat and dairy industry as means to feed lions, elephants and rhinos in order to help them survive? If so, elephants and rhino’s are herbivores, so not helped here, and in each case, the endangering of various species is largely down to a combination of factors such as habitat destruction (for which animal agriculture is the leading cause), game and ivory hunting, and climate change factors (for which animal agriculture is the leading contributor).”
A WORD ON PHYSICAL CRUELTY TO ANIMALS
That is not to say all farmers treat their animals well. Vegetarians will point to instances where animals are horrifically mistreated and do suffer.
I do not condone this one iota and agree these actions are reprehensible and the perpetrators should face the full force of the law. Which is another point. In the UK we have extremely strict laws governing the welfare of animals living on farms.
I’d be very supportive of any efforts to strengthen those laws, particularly where battery farming of hens and chickens is concerned. Those laws provide reassurance to me that animal produce I consume has come from a creature who has not suffered and did live a life in reasonable comfort. Certainly in more comfort than if it was in the wild.
“The notion of ‘humane slaughter’ and farm animal ‘welfare’ is purely mythical. Firstly, we as humans do not get to decide the fate of something/someone else. It would be no more acceptable for me to raise a child brilliantly and with love only to kill it in a way in which it likely wouldn’t feel any pain than it would to raise it awfully and murder it brutally. In either case the child is a victim, and the murderer a perpetrator. We’ve now crossed into the strange territory where perpetrators get to decide how much suffering is appropriate for the victim, rather than simply deciding not to create a victim in the first place. That simply isn’t the binary choice we face when it comes to animals – we don’t have to kill them, exploit them, artificially inseminate them, steal their offspring or do anything but care for them. We don’t have to choose between ‘free range’ and factory farms. We can choose neither.
Secondly, although estimates vary, by conservative numbers, we slaughter 100 billion land animals every year. Slaughter is not clean room, carefully controlled slaughter carried out by pHd graduates – it’s carried out by some of the least skilled and least educated members of the labour market, with some of the highest resign and rehire rates in the work place. The parts per million efficiency of slaughter (ie, the amount of times it works efficiently) is very, very low. But even with Silicon Valley manufacturing tolerances of say, 99.99% – in other words, 99.99% of the time, the slaughter is painless – that’s 1,000,000 animals slaughtered every single year in ways that are not painless, and that can accurately be described as ‘horrific’. But slaughter doesn’t have anything like the ppm efficiency of Silicon Valley. Even if slaughter were efficient 90% of the time – an outrageously high efficiency for slaughter – that would be 10 billion animals killed in ways that most ‘animal welfare’ advocates would themselves be opposed to. Based on the testimony of ex-slaughterhouse workers, slaughter is probably ‘efficient’ no more than 60% of time. This is incredible levels of suffering, pain, terror and agony that even ‘welfare’ and ‘humane slaughter’ advocates should find unacceptable by their very own standards.”
YOUR DUTY TO SECURE THE FUTURE SURVIVAL OF FARM ANIMALS
This is why I think that people who are living on a vegetarian or vegan diet are the ones guilty of cruelty to animals. They would have the farms providing regular food, warmth and security for millions of animals in this country shut down.
“Veganism isn’t about shutting down farms. It’s about reducing unnecessary suffering. The skills that farmers possess could be re-diverted to arable farming. Animals can be cared for at sanctuaries and kept as pets. Remember, these things already happen, and the notion of a sudden overnight global vegan awakening is pure fantasy, so these changes will – and indeed are – take place over time. Billions of farm animals are not suddenly going to be placed in overnight jeopardy.”
My feelings have certainly caused a lot of debate here in the office. I’m currently sat next to a colleague who is a vegetarian. It’s made her have a long think of what impact her eating habits have on animals. I refuse to be accused of cruelty myself when I am genuinely an animal lover as my pets at home can testify.
“The eating habits of a vegetarian are, unfortunately, still major contributors to mass suffering through the dairy and egg industries, which is inextricably tied to the meat and veal industries. Most people’s household pets would undoubtably testify to the love and care of their owners. But those pets aren’t being bred for slaughter. The testimony of animals trapped in an abattoir would be quite different. There is a clear difference between being a ‘pet lover’ and an ‘animal lover’. You cannot love animals whilst consigning them to the slaughterhouse, in fear, pain and death. That is incoherent.”
So, my message is continue eating steaks, bacon and burgers. Continue drinking your milk and eating dairy chocolate.
“A convenient conclusion reasoned from a fantasy scenario in which all relevant considerations have been removed.”
You are the people creating the need for these animals to be born and cared for. Securing the animals existence.
“Securing an existence of suffering, exploitation and death, as well as environmental catastrophe and a range of associated health risks for everyone else.”
Imagine your great grandchildren having to learn about animals such as pigs and chickens from books and videos the way we do now about mammoths and dodos. That is a real possibility if the militant vegan lobby have their way.
“This suggests that our sense of nostalgia is more important than the well-being and desires of the animals themselves. Preferring not to want to read about a certain species in hindsight does not in anyway justify the continued breeding into existence of that species if it’s life will be consigned to and based solely upon its ‘usefulness’ to us as humans, and all of the suffering, pain, death and grave environmental consequences that follow. What it would be better to tell our grandchildren is that we were on the right side of history; we recognised animals feel pain just as we do, that animal agriculture is the leading contributor to our children and grandchildren’s decent chances of survival, and that in recognition of those facts, we changed our attitudes and behaviours accordingly.
Better yet, we can take our grandchildren to the numerous animal sanctuaries created in the wake of our ethical realisations and explain to them that we saved these wonderful creatures from an awful fate, all in the face of massive resistance from the large majority who simply didn’t want to give up their bacon rolls. In short, we have the choice to make our grandchildren proud and thankful of our actions, or to feel ashamed of them.”